[tmtranscripts] Pocatello Transcript 8-27-99

[Bill Kelly]

8-27-99

Daniel(Bill): Greetings, my friends, I am your teacher, Daniel.  I am also
your friend and your admirer.  Your willingness to disclose your hearts to
each other is, of course, a fruit of the Spirit as, indeed, it is a form of
confiding trust.  It also demonstrates your core values and beliefs.  It
demonstrates that you believe that the interaction between personalities,
bonafide  persons, at the level of honesty and compassion, has great value
for you all.

The technique of discovering what you believe and what you value is part of
the process of spiritual growth.  In some ways it appears to be the root
source, but generally, as most of your testimonies reveal, this kind of
introspection usually does not occur in the beginning.  Because each of you
has within you the divine Fragment, that part of the First Source and Center
given to you when you first demonstrated your capacity for moral choice, is
there a burning desire, is there a smouldering which burns in you all, and
in all other people as well.  

I wish to consider some aspects of truth this evening; and while probably
most of what I say may not appear to be strikingly original, I will merely
remind you that truth is a gradual process of absorption.  Sometimes
concepts have to be presented in many ways before they are understood at a
level deeper than mere intellectual assent.

The progress of science on this planet, which has freed human thinking from
many a superstition, depends upon a process which is clearly laid out and is
verifiable.  This is the necessary means to discover facts.  Facts must use
the scientific process to be established.  Facts lead to the attempt to
organize them into meaningful arrangements; and this is where science
reaches toward philosophy in that it proposes hypotheses and theories which
have to be tested and repeatedly tested until there is no reasonable amount
of doubt as to their validity.  The problem with truth is that it is at
levels higher or deeper, which ever way you want to think of it, than the
level of factual reality.  The collection of facts may be entirely accurate
while the interpretation of the inter-association  of those facts, their
"truth" can be totally in error.

I wish to distinguish between the kind of information that is commonly
called "truth" in the average person's mind, but is really another way of
describing a fact which is empirical, verifiable, and repeatable and the
"truth" which is an attempt on the part of rational creatures to ascertain
the meaning of the inter-association of facts in the larger
inter-association and larger perspective which is termed "truth".  Because
of the success of the scientific method in ascertaining facts, many are led
to decide that this method is also the only method to ascertain truth; it
not being clearly understood how facts differ from truth, per se.  Therefor,
for many, any method of achieving truth which does not follow the strict
scientific, empirical approach is considered out of court, is automatically
ruled out as having no value.  But because the universe is constructed on
three levels of reality, material, mindal, and spiritual, truth is a larger
reality than that which emerges from an analysis and an attempt to
understand the collection of material facts.  Truth embraces facts, their
meaning and their relative value, which is the spiritual level.

Jesus was one of those precocious children whose inquisitive mind searched
for consistency among the facts of his experience.  He challenged his
elders, his parents, his Chazon to explain the meaning of natural phenomena
which in his day were attributed to the action of God, such as earthquakes,
lightning, thunder, etc.  Jesus was a truth seeker and he early learned to
find truth from many directions, not the least of which was his naturally
scientific bent of mind.

If a person has decided  philosophically that there is only one level of
reality, the material level,....that is a faith assumption.  It cannot be
"proved" by any scientific means.  It requires as much faith to be an
atheist as it does to be a theist, a believer in Deity, for neither world
view can be proved in any sense by scientific procedure, for the realm of
Deity is the realm of Spirit. Therefor "truth" comes in the human experience
from all three levels of reality and is integrated in the mindal arena which
is between the other two levels.  

I suggest that you never abandon the rigorous scientific approach for
material facts, but that you acknowledge by your own experience your
spiritual reality, the presence of that Divine Part in you and also accept
with confidence that you have minds capable, when they are in cognizance of
all three levels of reality, of finding progressively the truth that you
seek.  Like Jesus, let us all look for truth in every corner and not rule
out any of those three basic realities.

Of course in my case, as a morontia being, I live above the reality that is
material.  I am more aware of the spiritual dimension and I have survived
mortal death.  Certain questions that bother mortals on this planet, such as
the question of afterlife, were not a concern on my planet of origin.  We
were in an intermediate stage of Light and Life with the presence of our
spiritual administration intact.  It was at the level of what would be
termed scientific evidence, that there was supermortal existence.   So my
experience was different from yours, for these things were not questioned.  

Remember that even one so brilliant as a Lanonandek Son, Lucifer, could fall
into error in his mind and conclude that the universe as conceived and
explained by his Creator/Father was a delusion and a lie; that there was no
central source, no First Source and Center; that the universe was just all
one giant mechanism run by its own energy with no intelligent connection.
So even to be above the mortal estate still requires the elements of trust
and faith.  I am taught and I firmly believe..we are not ever going to reach
certitude without the need for faith, until we step ashore upon the shores
of Paradise.

The ultimate placement of truth is within yourself.  There is your source
for discerning truth.  It is not in some external authority, no, it is
within you.  What I have told you tonight you must filter through this
source, even though I have spoken authoritatively.  My friends, I wish to
conclude my remarks so that others may participate.  I am Daniel.  My love
to you.

Ken: Our love to you, Daniel.

Minearisa(Nancy): I am Minearisa, present with you this evening, your
instructor in residence, who smiles upon you so fondly.  

Daniel has done a fine job of revealing the reality that truth is known only
through inter-association, or to use my favorite teaching term,
relationship.  Truth is about relationship.  When I began my direct
instruction of this group I stated that we would be studying relationship:
the relationship of you with God; the relationship to yourselves; your
relationships with one another; your relationships to the environment; your
relationships with beings.  I could also have said that this curriculum was
a curriculum for the discovery of truth, for so it is.

To know truth one must have an understanding of the many intricacies of
relationship of which you all are a part.  This is, indeed, the curriculum
throughout time, starting here in the present, going forward and also your
study in the past.  Your search for truth has been to understand your place
in the complexity of relationships.  This is the study of truth.  So, in
this curriculum, we have begun at the most fundamental levels, with the
understanding of self in reaction to others, in reaction to God, in reaction
to self.  

This study is all encompassing at this level of development.  As you proceed
in your ascension career, this study will expand and not only will you come
into understanding of your relationship to different aspects of the universe
of universes, but you will come into understanding of the inter-association
of relationships of all aspects of the whole.  At the time that the Supreme
Being becomes God the Supreme, at the time that the evolutionary planets are
complete, you will have full understanding of the evolutionary universes.
So, my dear friends, the study of truth is an ongoing process that will
absorb you for eons to come.   It is our great privilege to serve you and
serve with you in these early steps of truth seeking, of self discovery, of
spiritual growth and transformation.  Now that we may continue in our role
as servants to you, Daniel and I open the floor to discussion, questions,
challenges.  We are willing to serve.

Daniel(Bill): This is Daniel.  I neglected the last point in my mini lecture
which I would like to briefly allude to now before we allow your
interaction.  With your permission, Minearisa....

Minearisa(Nancy): Of course.

Daniel(Bill): I will say this.  Who is capable of discovering truth?  What
does it require to find this most precious of treasures?  The answer
is....anyone who sincerely seeks shall find the truth.  Knock and the door
shall be opened.  Ask and you shall receive, said our Master and in so
saying revealed the key to discovery of truth.  This is self evident and
therefor I need not elaborate further.  I am finished.

Bob P: A couple questions.  One, to that last piece.  Seek and you shall
find or something like that.  And the second has to do with asking. Seeking
isn't necessarily finding, it is a path to finding but again somewhere in
there, there has to be some kind of an acceptance.  I am not sure I yet
accept the fact that I believe ...I agree that you can't prove the next
level doesn't exist just as you can't prove that our scientific reality is
the only reality.  It clearly is the reality that most of us experience and
most of us experience everyday and most of us can see, feel, and touch.  It
is not as easy as saying you can't disprove the other, therefor it is real.

And two, I read this in a book by a Urantaite about God.  He also said, all
of this is yours; all you have to do is ask.  My questions is...why should
we have to ask?  Asking means wanting enough to believe. I am back to
circularness if it is truly all about goodness, the asking part pushes a lot
of the old church buttons, whereas in order to deserve, you have to ask.  I
don't buy that.

Minearisa(Nancy/PamElla):: Daniel, do you mind if I take a first stab.(laughter)

My friend, I will not attempt to address the totality of your question.  I
wish to simply bring in another aspect.  I pause for Nancy is insisting it
is tautological.  However, there is a time component to seek and ye shall
find, ask and the door shall be open.  What is intended here has nothing to
do with deserving, has nothing to do with pleasing some sort of demanding
god's ritualistic structure, no.  A heart that desires has asked.  It is not
the forming of the question in words that is important, it is the desire of
the heart.  Seekers know that they are seekers; and you are absolutely
correct that in the time frame in which you are operating those who seek do
not always find.  But this does not mean that they never find.  It means
that there is a lapse between the questions and the answer that at this
point in time feels like eternity, and yet in the passage of eternity is
less than a blink. (Long pause)  I apologize for the delay.  I am struggling
with my voice who found such answers completely unsatisfactory when first
offered.  I will say this.  The passage of time has altered that response in
PamElla and perhaps with the passage of time if you have a similar reaction,
yours will also diminish. You see, to ask, to seek, to desire that which has
spiritual significance is a prayer; and God does answer all prayers.  I am
finished.

Daniel(Bill): And I, Daniel, will take on another aspect of the two questions.  

If I understood you correctly, my friend, you said why is it required for a
person to ask in order to receive?  Did I hear that correctly?

Bob: Yeah.

Daniel(Bill): Because that is the essential characteristic that is different
about an evolutionary creation and a fiat creation. In the fiat creation of
Havona no one asked for anything.  The universe of Havona appeared from
eternity in perfection.  In the evolutionary universes each of us is
co-partner with God in our own evolution, our own creation.  This is God's
gift to the evolutionary universes, that we have a part in it.  And part of
that part is the asking, the doing, and the volunteering.  It is an
essential aspect of our existence which is the will of God that we become
co-creative.  Does this answer your question in any manner?

Bob: I'll have to get back to you.(much laughter).

Virginia: Teachers, along that same line, I heard what Minearisa said about
the very fact that we are seekers.  We have already asked.  I don't know for
sure where I read this but something about, if we are trying to find God,
God has already found us.  I think that is a part of what is going on here
because I believe that the only reason that I desired to know God is because
God has sought relationship with me.

Daniel(Bill): Yes, my dear, and God first asks you, and you respond.  You
have just stated that.  You see, it is the same process.  God says to His
creatures, "I ask you, will you receive me?"  We have the privilege of
saying yes or no.  That is a Godlike characteristic, this co-creative
reality.  In fiat creation the Creator did not solicit partnership with His
creation.  In the evolutionary universes this is the great and wondrous
grandeur of Supremacy.  The truth that Minearisa described so well in
relationship involves the free consent both ways to enter a relationship or
to maintain it. Your statement, of course, is truth.  You know it as well as
the rest of us do.  Thank you for your contribution.

Virginia: I have one other thought about truth and, of course, I know that
we have had lessons on truth before, but truth is an ever...., to me, oh my
goodness, what I once thought was truth!!!  We have all looked back at our
past tonight, the truth I once believed is so different than the truth that
I now live and want to have grow.  It seems to me somebody should say
something about truth changing as we change.  I am not talking about
Absolute Truth, because there are some absolutes...love is absolute.  There
are some absolutes.  The expression of that truth is what changes.  I don't
know....

Minearisa(Nancy): I will address your reference to the relativity of truth
and that is because truth is about relationship; and those relationships
change over time.  Perception changes over time.  So both perception of the
relationship and the actual relationship change, thus the relativity of truth.

Daniel(Bill) For example, (as the book uses this, I will refer to
it)[editor's note: page 1096] imagine a picture of a dirty, filthy primitive
man with his club raised and his face gnarled in anger.  From that much what
can you deduce about the dignity of man or the circumstances that are
occurring at this point?  You could assume he is having a rage in which he
is threatening his family and that he is the most despicable of men.  But if
you enlarge the picture to include the saber toothed tiger in front of him
and his family behind him, the picture clarifies as it is enlarged and
indicates that he is a most courageous worthwhile individual, defending his
family against this terrible threat.  The enlargement of the picture to
include more relationships enlarges the truth.  That is the relativity
principle.  So the larger the perspective, and the more detail that is
included, the relationships of persons and objects, all these things, the
more accurate is the truth that emerges.

Virginia: Thank you.

Daniel(Bill): One is tempted to say of previous understandings of truth that
they were error.  But that is inaccurate.  They were not error, they were
merely relative to a larger perspective, therefor less accurate.  This is
somewhat subtle to understand.  We like to refer to the term scaffolding to
describe the relationship of partial and lesser truth to larger and greater
truth, for it is a necessary process in order to construct the larger
building of truth.  The scaffolding has to be there to make the construction
possible.  

My friends, I am aware that we have filled your plates with rather
substantial, perhaps tough looking food to chew upon tonight; and also that
the time has reached limitations which are inherent in your mortal
lifestyles...which is fancy words to say...we're through! (Laughter) Our
time has been completely used up.  In behalf of all the invisible friends,
not imaginary, but invisible(laughter) I bid you good evening.