[tmtranscripts] S.E. Idaho Transcript 4-22-03

[Bill Kelly]

SE Idaho TeaM
April 22, 2003

Prayer by unknown being (Bill): Ask and you shall receive.  Knock and it
shall be opened.  Seek and you shall find.  Prepare our hearts, our Father,
as You dwell within each of us to receive Your truth; to be passageways for
Your love; to be instruments of Your service.  We ask it in Michael's name.
 Amen.

Talacia (Bill): Hello, dear friends, I am Talacia once again honored to be
with you.  No, Ken, I haven't been given permanent status on this staff,
but it was decided, upon review of last week's meeting, that you respond to
my status as a Finaliter because you know that it is your destiny as well;
and while you immensely treasure your morontia companions, your teachers
who have delivered such excellent information to you, that because I was
here during this period of study and consultation  I should make myself
available one more time.

So now I greet you with some familiarity, my dear ones, and it is my
privilege to teach you in response to questions.  So with no further ado,
we will engage in a friendly conversation.  I will bring no lesson at the
start, but perhaps in response to your concerns we will share a lesson
together.  What would you like to discuss?

Ken: We had quite a discussion during our  reading of last week's lesson
about us agondonters, about yourself and all other agondonters.  We found
lots of humor.  We have questions.  Perhaps we can answer them in the
Urantia Book; perhaps we can't.  One of the questions that was brought up
was, "At what point do we become agondonters?"   Is that permissible to
ask, my friend?  (Comments and laughter.)

Talacia (Bill): Anything is permissible, but not everything will be
answered.  In a sense this is a curiosity question.  It is a theoretical
question.  I can respond to it, and I will, but we desire that questions be
asked which pertain to your actual everyday routine, and irregular
lifestyle; but I will qualify the term somewhat.  In the definition it is
clearly stated that it refers to those people who have trusted in the
goodness and over-care of God without material support, without sight.
Now, you might say, what does that mean?  Very clearly it rules out anyone
who lives on a planet of normal status where the spiritual administration
is physically evident and cannot be disputed.  It is not a matter of faith
whether there is an Adam and Eve, it is a matter of fact.  It is not a
matter of faith whether there is a magisterial son in the case of one who
is incarnate; it is a fact.  

However, persons living on normal planets still have to exercise faith in
what they do not see; they have to believe the words of the teachings of
their spiritual advisors regarding things that are still in the future.  So
you see, even those individuals have to live by faith, for short of the
Paradise embrace of the Spirit, the Son and the Father, Their existence as
the Trinity is to some degree a matter of faith.  It also could be argued
that each one has contact with the Trinity, even as mortal, with the
experience of the Thought Adjuster within, the Spirit of the Son—the Spirit
of Truth within, and the often times almost convincing ministrations of the
Third Source and Center, through the angels of the Mother Spirit of the
Local Universe.   Now you see I am sort of shading in here between a black
and white definition, as non-agondonters still exercise faith. 

But agondonter status is still a reality.  It is based upon your
experience.  As you have discussed this evening not everyone on a rebellion
planet will become an agondonter for many have barely a flickering of
faith.  But because you have not had the full information a normal planet
would have available to all your people, then these, who have not
opportunity to make a final decision, will be given that opportunity on the
morontia worlds.

Bob S: But they cannot become agondonters.

Talacia (Bill): No, not on the morontia worlds.  Now I prefaced my remarks
by saying this is somewhat of a curiosity question, and here is the reason
for that comment.  Concern with rank and status, (which is not, by the way,
the way we think as agondonters), concern with rank and status on the part
of mortals, on your part therefore, is antithetical to your spiritual
journey.  Remember how Jesus' original Apostles would fall back into
questioning, propositioning each other, wondering who was going to be on
the left hand and right, who would be prime-minister, who would be in
charge of finances in the coming kingdom?  These are rank and status
discussions.  That is why I am somewhat reluctant to talk about it.  

Your conversation relative to the decision to do the will of God forever,
which Isaac termed a betrothal decision, is proper for spiritual progress.
It is the goal of your Thought Adjuster to bring you all to that betrothal
agreement, and once that decision has been made, then have you set your
face toward Paradise.  When that decision is confirmed in the actual
wedding, fusion, that marriage never experiences divorce.  You and your
wonderful Mystery Monitor, your Thought Adjuster, your Thought Controller,
(all the same entity) become the same unified eternal personality.

Again to be an agondonter is to have certain experience.  It relates to
faith, a faith that is based on another kind of sensing. It is not the
sensing of the eyes, the ears, the touch of your hands, the taste of your
mouth, or smell, but the sensing of the reality of your indwelling presence
of God the Father, God the Son and the care and surrounding support of God
the Spirit through the Mother Spirit and the ministry of Her angels.  So
what would you say to this, my friends?  Do you wish to discuss this
further?  Have you understood my words here?

Ken: I understand your concern.  I appreciate your taking my curiosity
question, and giving me new light and understanding.  I thank you for that.

Talacia (Bill): Thank you, Kenneth.  Please take no offense or worry about
the fact that I termed it a curiosity question for in fact you individually
were only part of the group that discussed it, and it is not inappropriate
nor irresponsible to ask that question.  As I said earlier, all questions
are appropriate, but some may not be answered, yes.

Bob S: Would you care to comment on the debate which Ken and I had
concerning whether agondonter status is based upon a single level of
attainment that everyone must meet, or is it one which is individualized
where each individual is judged to be ready or not based upon the
circumstances and situations that individuals have achieved, and perhaps
their Thought Adjuster then makes the decision when He feels they have
attained that level of spiritual development?

Talacia (Bill): It is actually a process which entails both of your points
of view.  It is not necessary for you to know the administrative details.
It would be important if you were part of the process and it was part of
your job description so that you do your job properly, but that is not the
case.  The key ingredient is the quality of faith, the degree to which you
have been able to surmount the negative aspects of your environment and the
negative aspects of your reaction to your environment.  It's the degree to
which you were able to triumph over the spirit poisons, and I know you know
what those are.

On the other hand, everyone's circumstances are unique because even though
you may be in identical environments, you have difference personalities
which organize things each according to their unique patterns.  Your
interpretations of identical environmental aspects differ, so, even if you
are in identical environments, (which never is true actually), you would
still have variable reactions.  At the same time you have an equality among
you, as do all created personal beings of Father-fusion potential, and that
is you have a portion of the First Source and Center as a Fragment within
your mind.  This is the equality that you have, so you have the same amount
of help even though you are different individuals.  You, therefore, have
different experiences, but with equal opportunity.

Now, as to the judgment of who shall be an agondonter, I will not explicate
that to you.  I will say that such an important decision is almost as
important as the decision whether to survive or not survive.  The
adjudication of nonsurvivers is always a lengthy process, with mercy
pleading with justice, but, as you know, the nonsurviver finally decides by
his own decision.  In contrast, the decision about whether one is an
agondonter or not is very nearly the same process as the decision about
where an individual is to be placed on the 7 mansion worlds.   It is the
same kind of thing that you do when you make placement decisions about
individuals in terms of educational levels; whether to pass a grade or not;
in job assignments whether or not a person has the skill to do this job.
So it isn't a simple decision by one individual.  Yes, Thought Adjusters,
of course, have major input and your guardian angels are included.  These
kinds of major important decisions go through a review process until there
is no discord or disagreement about the decision.  Do you understand what I
am saying?  Does that help you?

Bob S: Yes, it helps.  I was sure that you wouldn't be able to give us any
details regarding the process, and I concluded that having the details
would be counter-productive.  It would probably hurt rather than help with
the decisions we have to make.

Talacia (Bill): Experience is the important thing.  If your experience
includes overcoming spirit poisons, and triumphing over life in a situation
such as living on this planet where there are no visible sources that can
serve as alternatives to faith, the decision will be made based on the
quality of your trust and service, and the degree to which the Fruits of
the Spirit manifest in your life.  Other comments about anything else that
you want to discuss with me?

Virginia: Talacia, I was reminded of individuals with near-death
experiences.  (I just may have figured out how to answer my own question.)
Certainly these people who have experienced something beyond and have come
back, and believe that love and knowledge are the most important things,
may not qualify as agondonters; but then I realized that their decisions
are based upon previous religious personal experience.  What are you
comments on my question?  Did I make myself perfectly clear or muddy?

Talacia (Bill): If I had made myself perfectly clear you would know the
answer to your question, so I will briefly reply.  My answer is that I
wouldn't know, because it is not given to me to decide that!  As I told you
a minute ago, it is a group decision.  I hear your logic though.  You are
saying that in a near-death experience they did encounter with their eyes
open, as it were, the spiritual administration.  It is an interesting
question, and I don't recall that any of my company has had that
experience; but as to the actual status of such an individual, again it
would be a group decision.  I threw in that gray area to get you to
understand that it is not simply a black and white thing; that some people
have seen visions; does that disqualify them from being considered
agondonters, you may ask.  (Comments.)  And what I wanted to say at the
beginning and I hope that I got through to a degree is, don't worry about
status questions!  It's the wrong kind of concern, you see.  It really is.
(Comment.)  Whatever will be, will be, regarding your experience.  It
should not really be a goal to achieve agondonter status or a goal not to
achieve agondonter status.  (Comment.)  The goal should be to progress;
always to increase your faith.  The agondonters are not in a status set-up.  

The churches that believe in levels of heaven, as status achievement, miss
the point.  The levels of heaven are like the rungs of a ladder.  They are
achievement levels yes, but they are not status levels in the eyes of the
mature universe.  It is acceptable to take a degree of self-satisfaction in
the achievement of spiritual progress as long as it is not ego
satisfaction, for ego satisfaction is totally off the mark since those
achievements were only accomplished in spite of the ego!  Do you see?  And
so when anyone thinks to themselves, " I shall go to the 3rd heaven and
this ruffian next to me might make to the 1st, and this uncouth lad here
may not even get to the 1st level, and this other person may make it to the
2nd".  This kind of thinking is foolish; it is judgmental; it is
ego-centered; it misses the point entirely!  And so it is with agondonter
status, it is a matter of experience—tough experience.  One of you desires
to retire to a planet of Light and Life, and indeed you will have your wish
granted, in a sense.  Now, have I muddied the waters?  (Laughter.)

Virginia: No, you haven't muddied the waters, Talacia.  When you said this
ruffian will go there, and this one will go there, I thought to myself, we
don't know the motives of that ruffian.  I have thought I had good motives,
and my actions are just outrageously  bad and I fall on my face.  But thank
goodness the Book says that it is the motives that God looks at.  This I
think is what you are saying, that we cannot judge anybody's motives, much
less even our own!

Talacia (Bill): And even more than that; motives are the main thing, but
there are other factors.  You don't know the circumstances in another
person's life.  You don't know about the genetic inheritance.  You don't
know the interpretation that person's mind has made regarding things, and
certainly you don't know the motives.  You don't know the degree they
desire to better themselves, although I'll say this flat-out, all people of
normal mind, meaning those who have average intelligence or better, those
who are not conscience deficient, those who are not mentally ill, all
normal minded people, because they are indwelt by Thought Adjusters, have
at the center the drive to achieve spiritual progress.  Some become
confused and befuddled by over-much learning, by sophistries, and by ego
aggrandizement.  This does delay them for then they seek not the resources
of that Inner Spirit.

Bob S: Has there ever been a case when a person has been granted agondonter
status, and then through powerful forces, or whatever, they've fallen away
to the point where they no longer qualify.  I am thinking of David and
Bathsheba, as an example.  (Comments and laughter.)

Talacia (Bill): Well, I don't know of such a thing.  I am not aware of such
a thing!  It's another hypothetical question!  What you are really asking
is when someone attains agondonter status, can they lose it?   Not once
they are fused. We haven't got a corps of agondonters here into which you
are inducted through a formal ceremony.  Most of you assume you are
agondonters, and I won't contradict that.  (Comments.)  I won't contradict
that not just to be gracious, but because I have no evidence to contradict
it.  When one reaches the morontia world life is very different than it was
for David and Goliath, (Comment.) or David and Bathsheba, or any other
mortal scene.

Bob S: But if you take away that essence of doubt, can you ever be 100%
certain a human being has reached that level?   And if he has, is he still
a human being?  Isn't that part of our role as human beings--to deal with
that lack of certainty.  When the committee says you have experienced
enough, you are qualified to be an agondonter, but are you still a human
being?  Isn't it part of our job as human beings to deal with doubt.  You
seem to be saying that an agondonter has reached that level where they have
doubt under control, but that, in itself, is a contradiction.  The doubt
has to remain there (to be fully human) doesn't it, until you reach Paradise?

Talacia (Bill): No, friend, it doesn't have to.  Jesus attained perfect
humanity in his human nature while still on this planet.  In fact, he never
doubted the over-care of his Father.   If you obtain victory over doubt in
this life you do not lose your human status.  You just become perfected or
nearly perfected.  In fact, if you reach that level of confidence you will
conjoin, just as Jesus did.  You will experience fusion. In Jesus' case he
couldn't fuse, so his Thought Adjuster became personalized.  But that was
the moment of perfection.  Should you achieve that level you won't lose
your humanity, but you will lose your residential status.  You will be
translated.  (Comment.)  But you remain evolving humans in morontia estate.
 You never lose your humanity, your original experience of human life.

Bob S: And when do we get over those doubts?  When did you lose your doubts?

Talacia (Bill): Perhaps I am giving you the wrong impression.  Your human
nature, your mortal mind, will raise questions.  Jesus' human nature raised
questions after he had reached that state of perfection in the Garden of
Gethsemane.  You could say he had doubts about the wisdom of his being
crucified.  (Comment.)  And so his mind raised questions in the Garden, and
he expressed his feelings; you could say doubts—is there any way out of
this situation?  But, as you know, he said, " nevertheless not what I wish,
but your will be done".  And that is the faith—that God's will is better
than human will, and he trusts the Father knows best.  

I guess you are not asking hypothetical questions, my friend.  You are
asking about your own soul's progress.  

Bob S: Well, probably.  You see through me.  Your interpretation is
probably correct.

Talacia (Bill): My advice to you is not to worry about qualifications, not
to ask hypothetical questions as Nalda did with Jesus.  Do you remember
that conversation?   (The woman at the well?)   Yes.   After Jesus had said
to her, "If you ask me I will give you living water!" she said, "Your
people say we should worship God in Jerusalem and our people say we should
worship Him here on the hill.  Which one of us is right?"  That was a
hypothetical question to divert the subject away from her spiritual needs.
And so Jesus redirected her question, and said it didn't matter whether you
worship in Jerusalem or on the holy hill.  The Father desires that people
worship in spirit and in truth, and they can worship anywhere as long as
they do that.

 So, I say to you to be more gracious with yourself.  Don't worry about
external standards of progress, but open yourself up, even more than you
have, to the intimacy of God Within.  Share your life with God.  This I say
to you all.  This is the essence of doing the will of God.  It's to be
friends with God, not servants, not slaves, but friends.  

Bob S: And that, in itself, requires a leap of faith, doesn't it?

Talacia (Bill): It requires the trust of a child in a loving parent, and it
wouldn't have to be such a leap of faith if this was a different situation.
 [Ed. He is referring to the rebellion and default of  Adam and Eve, or
possibly questioner's childhood.]   So, I guess you're right.  The leap is
part of that agondonter thing, because you haven't seen.  Remember, though,
that you have a spiritual sense, that as you draw near to God, He becomes
more real to the point where you can say, "I know that I am a son of God
for I speak with Him. I share with him.  I am intimate with him.  I am
close to Him," just as you are with anyone that you love dearly, preferably
as a child with your birth parents.

Another thing...thinking about the future, it can also be a distraction
from living in the present, and, as you know—at least as you have been told
several times, the present is where eternity resides.  The present is where
you make contact with God Within.  The present is all you have, although it
needs to be informed by the past and it needs to be informed by your
projected future.  But, nevertheless, don't get distracted from living in
the present by reminiscing about the past or speculating about the future.  

I have just been advised that it is time for this session to conclude, and
therefore, I will bring this to a close. I  feel there might be another,
lingering question, so I will pause and ask if somebody does have a final
question?

LaReen: I do.  Thank you for coming again! Will you come back?

Talacia (Bill): My job here, as I told you last week, is to observe your
different cultures and to be a consultant to your planetary government.  I
am not at liberty to promise that, but I know that my stay on this planet
has been projected to be for a reasonable time.  Now let me ask you, why do
you ask me that, my dear?

LaReen: I just enjoyed these last two classes immensely, and I enjoy your
company; and I know we, Bob and Ken will anyway, come up with more
questions.  (Laughter.)

Talacia (Bill): Thank you for expressing your affection for me.  I am
gratified that my words and my presence have been enjoyable.  Let me just
tell you that having gone through the entire ascension career I could no
more explain or describe what it is about to you than you could explain to
a five year-old what it would mean to scale a mountain with hands, feet and
ropes.  No five year-old can comprehend the myriads of momentous
experiences that one enjoys  in mountain climbing.  Yet  one of you asked
what it was like to meet the Father, (Comment.) I am trying to see if I
have any words:... the most profound sense of coming home; the most
absolute sense of knowing that you truly are the offspring of God; the
recognition that this is your Father—without question, without shadow of
defect or imperfection.  No, there are no adequate words—the most profound
joy; the most complete sense of satisfaction, far, far beyond the touch of
doubt, yes!

Well, know that I love you truly.  (Comment.)  We are all brothers and
sisters of this one, infinite, marvelous God.  Oh, be of good cheer, my
friends.  Don't let this life get you down—oh, no.  I have no reason to
doubt that you all shall be agondonters, but that's not the purpose.
That's just the effect.  That's the result.  That's your privilege, because
to be an agondonter is not to sit on a high and mighty throne, but to be a
servant who washes the feet of his brothers and sisters.  You will serve,
all serve, in the universe, and all learn as well, in the ascension career
but also in the Finaliter experience.  This life eternal, my friends, it's
just that, and none of us comprehends eternity, for we are still finite
beings.  But the longer I live, the more I look forward to every next
period of time. 

 Indeed, my period of time is over!  Thank you.  (Thank you.)  You are very
welcome.  Now it is your custom to pray and hold hands, so let us do this
once again.  Unite your hearts with mine.

On the knees of our hearts we bow to you, lovely Father, Universal Parent.
With our fullest intention we aim our lives toward the completion of Your
perfect will.  We thank You for the perfection of personality that we
behold in the Eternal Son, and know that we are like Him, Your sons and
daughters as well.  And we thank You that with the Infinite Spirit we are
graced with His work of merciful ministry, that we also can minister to our
brothers and sisters.  Oh my Father, may these, my brothers and sisters,
receive such an infusion of Your love that their doubts will vanish sooner
rather than later, and their joy will be complete, even as Michael of
Nebadon achieved human perfection.  Amen.